Will the chaos symbol appear in the Elric movie?

[devilchicken]

Without returning to all the discussions about GW - I was wondering if the use of the eight pointed chaos symbol would present a copyright issue for the film-makers of the Elric movie.

Granted Mr M never copyrighted the chaos symbol originally, and to a large extent GW's marketing of their products has been so extensive that many people associate the chaos symbol with GW as opposed to MM - I'd be interested to understand how it will be handled by Universal. Will we see the Chaos star in the Elric movie?

I'd hate to see them have to pay royalties to GW for something they pilfered to begin with...

The following text is the Trademark information from the GW website.

TRADEMARK INFORMATION

40k, Adeptus Astartes, Battlefleet Gothic, Black Flame, Black Library, the Black Library logo, BL Publishing, Blood Angels, Bloodquest, Blood Bowl, the Blood Bowl logo, The Blood Bowl Spike Device, Cadian, Catachan, Chaos, the Chaos device, the Chaos logo, Citadel, Citadel Device, Cityfight, City of the Damned, Codex, Daemonhunters, Dark Angels, Darkblade, Dark Eldar, Dark Future, Dawn of War, the Double-Headed/Imperial Eagle device, 'Eavy Metal, Eldar, Eldar symbol devices, Epic, Eye of Terror, Fanatic, the Fanatic logo, the Fanatic II logo, Fire Warrior, the Fire Warrior logo, Forge World, Games Workshop, Games Workshop logo, Genestealer, Golden Demon, Gorkamorka, Great Unclean One, GW, GWI, The GWI logo, the Hammer of Sigmar logo, Horned Rat logo, Inferno, Inquisitor, the Inquisitor logo, the Inquisitor device, Inquisitor:Conspiracies, Keeper of Secrets, Khemri, Khorne, the Khorne device, Kroot, Lord of Change, Marauder, Mordheim, the Mordheim logo, Necromunda, Necromunda stencil logo, Necromunda Plate logo, Necron, Nurgle, the Nurgle device, Ork, Ork skull devices, Sisters of Battle, Skaven, the Skaven symbol devices, Slaanesh, the Slaanesh device, Space Hulk, Space Marine, Space Marine chapters, Space Marine chapter logos, Talisman, Tau, the Tau caste designations, Tomb Kings, Trio of Warriors, Twin Tailed Comet Logo, Tyranid, Tyrannid, Tzeentch, the Tzeentch device, Ultramarines, Warhammer, Warhammer Historical, Warhammer Online, Warhammer 40k Device, Warhammer World logo, Warmaster, White Dwarf, the White Dwarf logo, and all associated marks, names, races, race insignia, characters, vehicles, locations illustrations and images from the Blood Bowl game, the Warhammer world, the Talisaman world, and the Warhammer 40,000 universe are either آ®, TM and/or آ© Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2004, variably registered in the UK and other countries around the world. All Rights Reserved

[DeeCrowSeer]

Wow, that's a lot of copyrights they have there. Can they legitimately claim copyright over... well they can't have copyrighted the words, can they? Surely the Catholic church owns the copyright on the "Inquisitor"... and the other GW thread has already thrown up the suggestion that the term "Space Marine" was coined in Starship Troopers.

Sorry, it's a good question... I didn't mean to interrupt. I'm very curious to hear the answer.

[xidrep]

More importantly, is Kommando's Chaos Bagel at risk?
Will it appear in the movie?
Should MM & Kommando join forces via a solicitor to trademark:

THE CHAOS BAGEL?????!!!!!

Perhaps.
Yes.

[Krimson]

More importantly, is Kommando's Chaos Bagel at risk?
Will it appear in the movie?
Should MM & Kommando join forces via a solicitor to trademark:

THE CHAOS BAGEL?????!!!!!

Perhaps.
Yes.

The Bagel will triumph!

One thing that interests me though is the terms Epic and Space Hulk. I am pretty sure that Epic is a Marvel trademark. Marvel is also in litigation with "Hulk" Hogan over the use of the name Hulk, since they claim the licence has expired. I also notice the use of "Inferno" as well, which I am sure is another Marvel trademark.

Since Games Workshop has made their industry from ripping off ideas from others, I don't think they would stand much of a chance in preventing Universal from using such elements in an Elric movie. Attempting anything of the sort would be equivalent to shooting oneself in the foot.

[Krimson]

Come to think of it, I suppose I could trademark the term Chaos Bagel, or at least copyright it. However, if I were to include the arrows of chaos as part of the description of the Chaos Bagel, then that would weaken my claim in court should someone like Games Workshop decided to rip it off and put it in one of their games. Of course if MM were to trademark it, and then license it to me to use we would all be in the clear.

[manmiles]

How can you trademark Chaos?

[devilchicken]

How can you trademark Chaos?

The actual chaos logo (the eight pointed star of chaos) is an official trademark of Games Workshop.

I just wonder to what extent GW would go to to protect 'their property'. Regardless of whether MM coined the term, designed the symbol in the first place (albeit in print, not necessarily a physical image), the fact that GW hold the copyright to it (and the fact that they have held it for a number of years) means that legally speaking they could have a right of refusal over whether or not the logo could be used in a movie, or attach conditions to its use (like pay us royalties / give us marketing rights etc.).

My opinion is that big corporations (and GW is a corporate entity these days) will go to quite some lengths to defend trademarks and enforce copyright issues, regardless of whether or not there's a dispute about who came up with an idea in the first place.

Ownership is 9/10ths of the law....

[Michael Moorcock]

Yes, the Chaos symbol will appear in the movie, probably in my own preferred form. And GW had better bloody try to claim copyright on a
symbol which I allowed to go into the public domain. There are, after all, plenty of instances of it being used (in the first Stormbringer comic for instance) long before GW saw the light of day.

[Jerico]

And GW had better bloody try to claim copyright on a
symbol which I allowed to go into the public domain. .

GW had better NOT. I agree.

[Anonymous]

it would be just plain wrong if the simbol did not appear

[Mario]

It's important to differentiate between trademark & copyright, in this case.

You can copyright a story, a song, or an image (among other things). That means you decide if and when that specific creation can be duplicated.

What you CAN'T copyright is an idea, like "Chaos is symbolized by an 8-pointed star".

Trademarks are different. A trademark is a specific word or image used to identify a particular product, for a particular purpose. So it's entirely possible that GW trademarked the term "Space Hulk", for example, associated with a specific game. But if Marvel wanted to publish a comic using the term, because it's a different venue, it may not apply.

Words are a slippery case anyway. Common dictionary words and proper names are rarely allowed trademarks, which is why companies tend to invent words that can be trademarked, like Kleenex :).

(I remember an infamous case where TSR, the then-manufacturer of a Raiders of the Lost Ark RPG, tried to trademark the word "Nazi" :) )

The upshot of all this is that, if MM makes a symbol distinct enough from the GW version (and the varying-size arrows qualify, IMO) he's on pretty solid ground.

[Valandar]

Actually, Mr M could use any damn version of the Chaos Symbol he damn well pleased, and be on solid ground.

GW CANNOT enforce that copyright/trademark/whatever. It's unenforceable, especially under the Berne Convention.

And technically, if they sue and lose, and it turns out they have made any money from similar lawsuitsin the past, that money may end up going to Mr. M, on top of that.

It would be ludicrous for GW to sue. Not just financially, but for PR reasons, too.

[Mario]

I wouldn't be too sure about that. One of the subtleties of trademarks is that they have to be USED to be valid. And if someone else uses them, and you don't sue, you can lose the trademarks.

I'd suggest a quick perusal of these two pages should help:

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copyright.html

[devilchicken]

What concerns me is that over the last few years GW have use the chaos symbol extensively in their products, packaing, magazines, books etc. Different illustrators have drawn virtually every variation of an 8 pointed star you can imagine, and of course GW would likely own the rights to those particular images and their reproduction.

The Trademark stuff I posted at the start of this thread states that 'The Chaos Symbol' is a Trademark. I wonder how they would define that in legal terms.

Additionally how would that affect Elric merchandising for the movie?

[TheEighthSon]

If GW screw up this film y'all won't have to worry about legal recourse, as I will personally drive down to Nottingham and beeyatch-slap every last one of them, from the Directors down to the Mail Order Trolls, into the next bleedin' century!!!
I've been there before, long long before they opened Warhammer World and similar public attractions, back some several years or so when a friend of me dad's was interviewing for the manager's position for the first (aborted at the time) GW in Australia- yep, he flew all the way from Oz for a job interview and was granted a tour of the premises and was allowed to take as much miniatures home as he could carry.
I got a tour of the studios, and feasted my eyes upon several unreleased projects, from the re-release of Talisman to a work-in-progress of the first 'new style' Dreadnought, and met a few of the artists and WD guys.
Pretty cool, eh? Long before all the stuff they do now!!!
Well, when it came time to go round the factory and get loads of free stuff, I was 'too young' and they wouldn't let me get any free stuff!!!
NOT COOL!!! NO FREE STUFF!!!
Sat for three hours while everyone else had loads of fun!!! Garry (the bloke) gave me some stuff anyway, but that wasn't the point!!!

Ahh, forget the Chaos sign and the Elric flick; I think THAT'S why GW started to go down in my opinion!!! Might go back and beeyatch-slap them for that...

One way or another, they're getting slapped!!!

(Marches off mumbling and complaining to himself, quietly plotting GW's eventual demise) :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: