An interesting theory on Nick Berg (American beheaded)

[VonWeiner]

I found this on another web site (fuckedcompany.com :roll: ) and thought it was an interesting idea. It may sound crazy - as many things do from posters on that site and parts of it are a little far fetched, but it raises some questions in my mind. Any thoughts?

Nick Berg: CIA Operative May 14 2004 07:39AM EST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Face it people. Nick Berg was a CIA operative. Here are the facts...

Berg was a government contractor for a small firm no one had heard of. This was the same cover used by Valerie Plame, Joe Wilson's wife.

Berg had travelled throughout the Middle East, but supposedly did not know Arabic. However, he made friends with Arabic-speaking Iraqis (to gather informaton?).

Berg spent time in Texas, Florida and Oklahoma during the time Al Qaeda was planning 9/11.

Berg somehow "knew" the 20th hijacker when he was in the Oklahoma flight school. In fact, the 20th hijacker somehow ended up using one of Berg's passwords on the Internet (I think this was an effort by the CIA to track his location by matching the password with IP addresses).

Berg was in the custody of the U.S. government for 13 days in Iraq, but the government denies it.

In the video, Berg has facial hair that would allow him to blend in with the Iraqi population, possibly to infiltrate Al Qaeda.

Close family members of CIA operatives usually don't know that their family members work for the CIA. This would explain why the father is confused by what is going on.

Berg was a "body builder" who worked out religiously. He was also fervently pro-Bush policy (his father isn't).

Berg's refusal of offers from the State Department to travel back to the U.S., though he supposedly was trying to get back to the U.S. (State would not be aware that he was CIA).

The only problem with the CIA operative idea is that, if it were true, Berg would have been in contact with 9/11 hijackers prior to 9/11. This would support the case that the U.S. knew more about the plot than has been let on.

I will add one thing. Nick Berg had also spent quite a bit of time working alone in other dangerous places "helping" people. Most people who go to volatile parts of the world to help people go with some organization or with others who feel the same. He apparently did these things solo. I am sure if I dig a little I could find more. None of this provides an excuse for his murderers. I don't care if he was 00-freakin-7, no one deserves that.

[Bill]

"The only problem with the CIA operative idea is that, if it were true, Berg would have been in contact with 9/11 hijackers prior to 9/11. This would support the case that the U.S. knew more about the plot than has been let on."

I don't know enough to say whether this has legs or not, but in response to the one negative, I don't think anyone is denying we knew that there were foreign nationals with potential terrorist ties in the U.S. pre-9/11. Several of those that were ultimately implicated for 9/11 were known to the CIA. That doesn't necessarily mean that they had any pre-knowledge of the actual plans.

Example: John Gotti and Sammy "The Bull" Gravano were under surveillance for several alleged crimes, and in the surveillance materials (including wire taps) there were discussions about "what to do" with Paul Castellano. Does that mean that the Feds knew about the 1985 Castellano killing before it happended? They did not.

I'm not suggesting that the FEds did or did not know more about 9/11 than they have released, all I am saying is that having a CIA agent in contact with one of the contributors is not indicative either way.

[VonWeiner]

"The only problem with the CIA operative idea is that, if it were true, Berg would have been in contact with 9/11 hijackers prior to 9/11. This would support the case that the U.S. knew more about the plot than has been let on."

I don't know enough to say whether this has legs or not, but in response to the one negative, I don't think anyone is denying we knew that there were foreign nationals with potential terrorist ties in the U.S. pre-9/11. Several of those that were ultimately implicated for 9/11 were known to the CIA. That doesn't necessarily mean that they had any pre-knowledge of the actual plans.

Example: John Gotti and Sammy "The Bull" Gravano were under surveillance for several alleged crimes, and in the surveillance materials (including wire taps) there were discussions about "what to do" with Paul Castellano. Does that mean that the Feds knew about the 1985 Castellano killing before it happended? They did not.

I'm not suggesting that the FEds did or did not know more about 9/11 than they have released, all I am saying is that having a CIA agent in contact with one of the contributors is not indicative either way.

Yeah, I thought that was a stretch too. Even if he was CIA and was in contact with any of the 9/11 hijackers, it wouldn't mean he knew anything about what they were planning. That goes for all of the CIA. So given that the whole 'Berg' theory is, well, just a theory, I think the gov't having some kind of knowledge of 9/11 before it happened is wishful thinking for some.

[VonWeiner]

I found more conspiracy theory on this too. Some of which is compelling (as many of these things can seem). I may post them for the hell of it. I just don't want to be branded a wacko! :lol:

I think they are interesting to talk about.

[VonWeiner]

Ok here's some:

Welcome to the Truman Show May 14 2004 11:15AM EST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arab linguists have said the man posing as the Jordanian Zaraqawi did not speak with a Jordanian dialect. Others have suggested the man reading the written statement may not have been a native speaker of Arabic.

Zaraqawi was missing one leg and had been outfitted with an artificial leg that did not fit or function properly. He was unable to walk or stand normally with his ill-fitting limb. No man in the group showed evidence of such an infirmity.

Numerous indigenous sources have said Zaraqawi was killed by a US helicopter attack months ago when he was unable to move quickly enough to escape the targeted house. While others managed to exit the house in time to survive, he died in the collapsed building.

As any surgeon will testify, the alleged beheading was a fake. A beheading would result in a tremendous amount of spurting blood. There would have been blood everywhere had an actual beheading taken place. When the executioner holds up Berg's head immediately following what is represented as an actual decapitation of a living person, there is no significant blood flow from the neck or blood splatters showing anywhere on the executioner. Furthermore, the cut was simply too neat to have been done crudely and with such amazing speed by a man wielding a knife. Anybody who has ever carved a turkey knows there is something wrong with the supposed beheading. The suspended head looks more like Berg had been neatly beheaded by a guillotine.

The orange jumpsuit was standard US military issue to men in custody. It is unlikely Berg would have continuing wearing a US custodial uniform if he had been released by the military as they claim. The fact he was still wearing the suit is both anomalous and suggestive. One is forced to speculate as to whether there was an immediate transfer of Berg from the US military to unknown persons, thusly preventing Berg from discarding his US prison garb.

Several of the men in the film were fat by Iraqi standards. If they were Feyadeen or mujahadeen, they probably have been living underground since the first days of the occupation. Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been shown on news stories as they have marched and demonstrated. One would be hard pressed to point out a single fat man among these thousands.

Some men had what can only be described as pasty-white hands. Once again, one would be hard pressed to find Arab men with pasty-white hands.

The lack of spurting blood suggests Berg was already dead at the time of the alleged decapitation. It is possible Berg's dead body was displayed with his head already partially or totally severed. In any case, he almost certainly was killed before the staged beheading. If so, it suggests the captors had no stomach for an actual beheading of a living person, and they opted to fulfill their assignment quietly and with the least amount of gore.

The scream that is heard has been interpreted as a woman's scream by many viewers. Videotape cognoscenti have further said the scream was amateurishly added to the tape.

The U.S. government translation of one statement made on the film is: "Does al Qaeda need any further excuses?" This is a falsification. The actual statement urged fellow insurgents to get off their hind ends and do something. One assumes the translator being used by the US military is a native speaker of Arabic, so this cannot be explained as an innocent flub. This suggests the US government wanted to inject an alleged al- Qaeda group into the murder of Nick Berg.

Iraqis who have seen the videotape on Arabic news broadcasts are universally saying the men in the film are not Iraqis. Are they saying this partly because the speaker does not employ an Iraqi dialect? Where does their certainty come from?

Firearms experts have stated the AK-47 carried by one man was a "Gilal." This actually is an Israeli-made weapon that improves on the famous AK- 47. Feyadeen and other insurgents almost universally use AK-47s.

The man in the videotape who is purported to be Zarqawi is wearing a gold ring. This is absolutely proscribed by Islamic law.

The US military has stated that Berg was never in US custody and that he had been in custody of the Iraqi police. The Iraqi police adamantly deny he was ever in their custody. On April 1, an e-mail from Beth A. Payne, the U.S. consular officer in Iraq, was sent to the family of Nick Berg. It stated that Ms. Payne had located Nick, and he was currently in custody of the US military. We have to conclude that either the email was bogus or the US military has been lying.

The chair that Berg was seated in during the filming was a standard issue military chair of the exact same kind as seen in a color photo taken at the Abu Ghraib Prison. The chances a terrorist cell would be using this same chair are minimal at best.

And:

The Grand Illusion May 14 2004 11:43AM EST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"CIA did it to take the heat off the Pentagon"--NBC reporter
Wed May 12, 2004 23:17

"...the CIA did it to take the heat off the Pentagon"--NBC reporter stated tonight prime time news, continuing, "...a story that will not die easily here in the Arab world".

NBC Nightly News with Tom Brokaw, May 12th

Thus said the reporter from NBC News already "innoculating" the public against this reasonable "conspiracy theory" being promulgated by more questioning minds in both America and overseas. BUT IT MAKES ALL THE SENSE IN THE WORLD!

The previous article posted, "Fishy Circumstances and Flawed Timelines" is worth reading, especially the numbered observations at the close of the article. But there is more to add:

1. Both Drudge and Aljazeera report that "A body found on Monday by US military patrol along a roadside over the weekend was identified as Berg's."

Note the confused reporting in this direct quote, "on Monday", "over the weekend", by US military patrol. Was it found on Monday or over the weekend--which one? Does this make sense to anyone? Or was someone scrambling a press release (in panic) of wording that was hastily contrived, and uncertain themselves about how the facts would compare to the report. VAGUE TIMING BEGS THE QUESTION, WHEN WAS THIS BODY REALLY FOUND?

Secondly, how was the body identified as "Berg's", if it was headless? Or was it? How do you quickly identify a body without a head?

Third, WHO were the U.S. forces that found it? Were they the same ones involved in his illegal detention?

2. Here is the smoking gun: If the body was found on Monday (May 10th), or previously "over the weekend" (prior), how could the execution and video be taped on May 11th, as is reported?

"The statement in the video was signed off with Zarqawi's name and dated 11 May" (Drudge and Aljazeerah).

An Arab magic trick indeed...to be able to execute a man on video tape ("May 11"), AFTER HIS BODY IS FOUND BY US FORCES, on "May 10th"!!!!! The video is not the only thing that appears fuzzy!!

3. The video was dated May 11th, typical Judeo-Masonic (CIA/MOSSAD) signature and M.O., like 9/11, and the recent 3/11 in Spain. Sorry, there is an M.O. to this "terrorism" that matches that of government psy-ops! Funny how they never mention the obvious pattern of dating isn't it? And the "terroists" signed his name to the video, though they wore hoods and masks! (Why?)

4. Berg's father filed law suit against the illegal detention of their son....and, bingo, he was released the next day (but not very popular we can be certain)!

"His father, Nick, filed a lawsuit on 5 April stating Berg was being held illegally by the US military in Iraq. The next day Berg was released." Aljazeera and Drudge

5. The Guatanamo Bay type US issue prison suit is very suspicious! Either he was handed over to the alleged "terrorists" in it--meaning US forces complicity to rid them of an American "dissident"--or the executions are Government--i.e. CIA (well-fed, lily white hands, hooded...but leaving the name of the executioner?)!

6. According to the video clock notations in the film, the "execution" took place between 13:46 and 13:47....apparently around 1:46 to 1:47 pm. Why is the video time not in Arabic? Do Arabs use military time?

http://www.drudgereport.com/iiraq3.htm

7. "God is great".....typical propaganda to libel militant Muslim jihaders with the crime, while they have lily white hands, their victim in US issue prison clothes, and video time in US military English!

8. The TIMING of this event being reported to the American public, on May 11th evening (note how quickly this went to full-blown news coverage by 6:30pm EDT on the very day of the execution......fast......and conveniently. Even MORE remarkable is how this was reported to Congress (not sure when) during WORK HOURS IN SESSION, precisely as the Pentagon, Rumsfeld, etc., were being grilled, and Senators were investigation the horrific prisoner abuse, and who was behind it! TALK ABOUT WELL-COORDINATED AND EXPEDITED 1) EXECUTION 2) BODY FOUND, IDENTIFIED, 3)NOTIFICATION OF KIN, 4) REPORTED TO CONGRESS...5) RELEASE IN FULL DETAIL WITH VIDEO TO NETWORK NEWS..........ALL IN ONE AMAZING DAY!!!!!

Is that a credible timetable WITHOUT government involvement? The 9/11 "hijackers" were not even identified for a couple days....but this one is instantly solved, and we are expected to swallow it whole without choking!

And one more:

Both Went To Same Flight School - DUH! May 14 2004 12:35PM EST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BOTH BERG AND MOUSSAOUI ATTENDED AIRMAN FLIGHT SCHOOL:
The Airman Flight School is centrally located in Norman, Oklahoma, and only

minutes away from Will Rogers World Airport in Oklahoma City. Norman is

the home to the University of Oklahoma; its residents enjoy all the

conveniences of a major metropolitan area. Norman averages more than

300 days of VFR weather per year, for year-round flight training. On IFR

days, students in advanced courses continue training on instruments.

http://www.airmanflightschool.com/#lodge

Just happened to meet 911 guys on a bus - gee whiz.

WEST CHESTER, Pennsylvania (CNN) -- When Nicholas Berg took an Oklahoma bus to a remote college campus a few years ago, the American recently beheaded by terrorists allowed a man with terrorist connections to use his laptop computer, according to his father.

Michael Berg said the FBI investigated the matter more than a year ago. He stressed that his son was in no way connected to the terrorists who captured and killed him.

Government sources told CNN that the encounter involved an acquaintance of Zacarias Moussaoui -- the only person publicly charged in the United States in connection with the September 11, 2001, terror attacks.

According to Berg, his son was taking a course a few years ago at a remote campus of the University of Oklahoma near an airport. He described how on one particular day, his son met "some terrorist people -- who no one knew were terrorists at the time."

At one point during the bus ride, Berg said, the man sitting next to his son asked if he could use Nick's laptop computer.

"It turned out this guy was a terrorist and that he, you know, used my son's e-mail, amongst many other people's e-mail who he did the same thing to," Berg said.

Government sources said Berg gave the man his password, which was later used by Moussaoui, the sources said.

The sources said the man who used Berg's e-mail knew Moussaoui, now awaiting trial on federal charges that could bring a death sentence. But the sources would not disclose details of how the men were connected.

The conspiracy theorists are flocking around this one. It is interesting though. Not to say I believe it, I just think it is interesting.

[krunky]

VW:

I saved this for one I had the time to contemplate it with more time. But seeing as how we are left with only reported accounts of what transpired, it is interesting to note how many apparent facts don't seem to gel together quite right. And that's what has "contrived" written all over it - that the facts don't all seem to fall together very well.

I use IMDB sometimes and I note that one of the more amusing aspects of the site is the link each movie has to "goofs" revealed in the final cut. Some of the possible categories for goofs are: continuity, audio/visual unsynchronized, revealing mistake, miscellaneous, and so on. It's not that easy to make something flawlessly even given time, and sometimes nearly an endless supply of money. So if time and money cannot buy perfection, flaws will creep in.

It seems that some of these flaws are starting to get scrutinized fairly severely. Sure, we can discount these findings and musings as the obsessional revelations of paranoid, conspiracy haunted people with too much time on their hands - but that doesn't actually make their observations false. It just makes us more comfortable to assume they are false in the same way that hiring more cops and building more prisons gives the illusion of law and order to a society very probably on the brink of disintegration.

The fictional Sherlock Holmes would dose himself with cocaine, play violin, and think, think, think about apparently unsolvable problems and arrive at plausible solutions. So to do the conspiracy quacks of the world - we just have a tendency to not believe them.

But that's like discounting the drug addicted, emotionally disturbed, strangely obsessed, quixotic, domineering musicians, artists, and writers of the world as if those flaws and bizarre character traits meant they couldn't produce good art. Indeed, such complicated people often do produce good art AND indeed we do not discount them in actual fact. We revere them and seemingly admire them even the more for producing good art despite those possible flaws.

As a matter of fact, a myth has grown up around the idea of genius that isn't actually true - at least not all of the time, or even much of the time. That is the myth of the single talent genius. For a long time it was thought that people like Albert Einstein were only good at one thing, like theoretical physics, but not particularly good at anything else. That the genius in one area was probably less than ordinary in other categories of life. But that's not true. Recently uncovered records reveal that Einstein was at least an above average thinker in most other areas, and maybe even something approaching a virtuoso violinist - so theoretical physics was not his single talent, far from it. Recent studies into the nature of genius reveal that people gifted with high intelligence are often good looking, well adjusted, athletic, and also incredibly brilliant - and it makes the "normals" really uncomfortable.

But consider how no one discounted Einstein's theories on physics even when they thought he was something of a kook in other ways. Why not? Because his theories were profoundly insightful.

It's easy to discount this stuff as "conspiracy theories" because acceptance of the truth is deeply disturbing. It means that the world is not ordered as we would like it ordered. Indeed, perhaps chaos is barely held at bay like a foaming and barking dog straining against his encumbering chains.

Maybe the world is ruled more by monsters than we would prefer to believe. Perhaps those same monsters find it convenient to have infected modern thought with the meme of "conspiracy theory" to disparage the search for truth and to otherwise throw us all off their collective scent - the stink of evil.

Maybe we need a meme for the person that searches for truth against all odds and without regard for socially accepted justification.

-------------------

LISTEN TO MY LAST WORDS anywhere. Listen to my last words any world. Listen all you boards syndicates and governments of the earth. And you powers behind what filth deals consummated. in what lavatory to take what is not yours. To sell the ground from unborn feet forever --
"Don't let them see us. Don't tell them what we are doing"
Are these the words of the all-powerful boards and syndicates of the earth?
"For God's sake don't let that Coca-Cola thing out --"
"Not The Cancer Deal with The Venusians --"
"Not The Green Deal-Don't show them that --"
"Not The Orgasm Death"
"Not the ovens"
Listen: I call you all. Show your cards all players, Pay it all pay it all pay it all back. Play it all pay it all play it all back. For all to see. In Times Square. In Piccadilly.
"Premature. Premature. Give us a little more time."
Time for what? More lies? Premature? Premature for who? I say to all these words are not premature. These words may be too late. Minutes to go. Minutes to foe goal --
"Top Secret -- Classified -- For The Board -- The Elite --The Initiates --'
Are these the words of the all-powerful boards and syndicates of the earth? These are the words of liars cowards collaborators traitors. Liars who want time for more lies. Cowards who can not face your "dogs" your "gooks" your "errand boys" your "human animals" with the truth. Collaborators with Insect People with Vegetable People. With any people anywhere who offer you a body forever. To shit forever. For this you have sold out your sons. Sold the ground from unborn feet forever. Traitors to all souls everywhere. You want the name of Hassan i Sabbah on your filth deeds to sell out the unborn?
What scared you all into time? Into body? Into shit? I will tell you: "the word." Alien Word "the." "The" word of Alien Enemy imprisons thee" in Time. In Body. In Shit. Prisoner, come out. The great skies are open. I Hassan I Sabbah rub out the word forever. If you I cancel all your words forever. And the words of Hassan I Sabbah as also cancel. Cross all your skies see the silent writing of Brion Gysin Hassan I Sabbah: drew September 17, 1899 over New York.

William S. Burroughs
1964


Nothing is sacred
Everything is permitted

[VonWeiner]

krunky,

Most of the above comments are observations of facts. There are a few conclusions, but most of the things people have said are simple facts.

I would not doubt that our gov't (and I am not refering to any one individual/admin or sets of individuals/admins) has the capacity to stage something like this execution or to execute someone like this and claim it was the "enemy".

There are many thing about all of this I find "strange". I find the jumpsuit strange.

I find the fact that our gov't quickly declared this was the work of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and claimed they know it was him holding the knife strange. And our whorish news media reports it as fact (if you go to the latest story on Nick Berg at cnn.com there is a bio w/pic of al-Zarqawi right next to the story - just in case the American public forgot who enemy numero uno is).

It is strange that the US gov't claimed they had Berg, now they say they never did.

As a matter of fact I find most of it disturbing. Especially since I don't trust any gov't, anywhere. But as I always say, I keep thoughts like that to myself. I really don't know what happened so anything I say is just speculation.

[Bill]

Everything that Krunky says is true in its context. The implication that this means there is some sort of objective truth to the idea that Berg was more than a civilian is, well, kind of the "fatigue" or "dissemination" of which I have been accused. Takes one to know one? Equating Einstein with the conspiracy theorists is, well, anecdotal. For every Einstein whose "kooky" theories pay off, there are THOUSANDS that remain "kooky". There was an interesting article about this very topic in Discover magazine about two years ago.

Personally? If I had to guess, and I have no proof of this whatsoever, I would say there was some meaningful tie between Berg and the U.S. Government. Not necessarily related to Iraq, maybe maybe not, but I am familiar enough with travel in that area of the world to know that the level of "repeat" travel of the kind that Berg did does not go unnoticed.

You all should know that I am ususally on the other side of this discussion, but I definitely think there is a lot more to this Berg issue than is being reported at this time. If this makes me a hypocrite, I can sleep at night, but I just have this nagging feeling we have not heard even the beginning of this story yet. I do believe his killers were al-Quaida or al-Quaida-affiliated, but I just don't believe they would grab a communications contractor "off the street" to make their point.

[Jerico]

I just voted "no" on the poll question.

[Grey Mouser]

I voted unsure. I like to remain open-minded about alternative explanations.

[Dead-Air]

Berg a Spook?

Greetings. I appear to be the first person to actually vote Yes in the poll. That said, I'm not at all certain whether he could have been a CIA operative or not, that's not what the poll asked. It asked if he could have been something more than an independent contractor. I sure think he could have.

My guess, is that he was actually some sort of double agent, playing both sides against each other. Really when you look at all the coincidences about this guy he becomes the Oswald of the 21st Century. Who knows who he might have been working for, but he sure was in everything thick, from loaning his laptop to a 9/11 terrorist to meeting with Michael Moore.

The jumpsuit is the really weird part. Islamic terrorists would not put their prisoner in an orange jump suit for decapitation, that's a really Western prison garb. American prisoners when released don't keep wearing the prison clothes either. It really implies that he went from U.S. hands to the "terrorist" hands without leaving captivity.

Nearly all of your posts show some real thought about this. I'd say that an Unsure vote and a Yes vote are pretty much the same thing in this case. We're as likely to ever know the truth as we are to find out what Oswald's real motivation was too.